Home

The Economic Populist

Speak Your Mind 2 Cents at a Time

Discussion

  • Forums
    • Labor Economics
      • Labor
      • Outsourcing/Insourcing
        • Immigration
        • Professional Labor Issues
    • Macro Economics
      • Fiscal, Monetary Policy
      • Global
      • Tax Policy
      • Trade Policy
      • Wall Street
    • Politics
      • Congress
      • Executive Branch
    • Admin
  • Home
  • Reads
  • Discuss
  • RSS Feed
  • Twitter
  • About
  • Contact
Home Discuss Wall Street

New blog posts

  • A Brief History of Securitization
  • Cuomo Takes on The Money Party
  • PIGS and the ouzo effect
  • Sunday Morning Comics - Yeah Yes Men Edition
  • Must Read Posts - Sometimes you just can't say it better for 02.06.10
  • Friday Movie Night - 25 Million Pounds
  • Is Residential Real Estate a Ticking Time Bomb?
  • It's time to live within our means once again
  • U.S. Manufacturing, Hire America & Buy American
  • Sunday Morning Comics - Hayek vs. Keynes Edition
more

User login

  • Create new account
  • Request new password

Navigation

  • User Guide
  • News aggregator

Recent Comments

  • Hi I am from Slovakia - a
    8 hours 44 min ago
  • Oh yes
    11 hours 38 min ago
  • Dylan Ratigan show today
    12 hours 15 min ago
  • SIGTARP is "the tell"
    14 hours 11 min ago
  • Actually,
    14 hours 21 min ago
  • What surprised me about that interview
    14 hours 26 min ago
  • True, but they are only making matters....
    15 hours 59 min ago
  • Part of the problem is the dire straits of states and cities
    16 hours 46 min ago
  • automatic graph scaling
    19 hours 7 min ago
  • Thanks
    19 hours 51 min ago
  • Euro being heavily shorted now
    20 hours 11 min ago
  • blog post idea
    20 hours 22 min ago
  • Great Post
    20 hours 29 min ago
  • there goes what's left of savings and retirement funds
    21 hours 33 min ago
  • FYI
    21 hours 40 min ago
  • Let's sure hope so
    23 hours 33 min ago
  • Greece default doesn't matter yet then it does ...
    1 day 1 hour ago
  • Actually the biggest waste of government money
    1 day 1 hour ago
  • We're In Holding Pattern Until 2012..
    1 day 4 hours ago
  • When is the MSM going to point out we are LOSING the best jobs?
    1 day 4 hours ago

Poll

Populist Du Jour

  • Holy Cow Batman! SIGTARP Barofsky says U.S. on the hook for $23.7 Trillion in bail out!

Vox Populi

  • Holy Cow Batman! SIGTARP Barofsky says U.S. on the hook for $23.7 Trillion in bail out!
  • Subprime meltdown over; now comes the bad news
  • The Deflationary Recession of 2009?
  • The Panic of 2008: a turning point
  • Text of Bail Out Act Before Congress - TAKE ACTION NOW!
  • Scientist Who Laid Ground Work for Nobel Prize Drives a Bus, Can't get a Job
  • 2009: Recession vs. Recovery (Update 4)

Active forum topics

  • How important is Greece?
  • Economic Stress hits new record
more

Atlanta Fed's Macroblog

  • Is good news hidden in bad employment numbers?
  • Southeast businesses offer insights on capital spending plans
more

iMFdirect

  • Getting Ready to Join the Eurozone Club
  • More to Do on Financial Sector Tax, Says IMF’s Lipsky
more

CBO

  • Visit to Morehouse College
  • CBO Estimates a Federal Budget Deficit of $434 Billion in the First Four Months of Fiscal Year 2010
more

powells

GAO

  • GAO-10-248, Highway Research: The Second Strategic Highway Research Program Addresses the Four Required Areas, but Some Anticipated Research Was Not Funded, February 5, 2010
  • GAO-10-25, Troubled Asset Relief Program: Treasury Needs to Strengthen Its Decision-Making Process on the Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility, February 5, 2010
more

Instapopulist

  • Economic Stress hits new record
  • The Federal Reserve's Exit Plan is Another Bank Bail Out Pig Fest
  • How important is Greece?
  • China Eastern Jiangsu Provence raises minimum wage, wow $140 a month!
  • Bank Failure Friday - one this week, 200 failures expected this year
  • Dr. Robert Reich on financial reform
  • Banksters ready to side-step new credit card rules
more

Calculated Risk

  • BLS: Few Job Openings in December
  • NFIB: Small Business Owners Report "shortage of customers"
more

Naked Capitalism

  • Links 2/9/10
  • Head of BIS Calls for Bigger Liquidity Buffers
more

Paul Krugman

  • Euro perspective
  • Know Your Deficits
more

dorgan

The Baseline Scenario

  • Elizabeth Warren Calls Out Wall Street
  • Whose Fault?
more

EPI

  • Unemployment drops to 9.7% despite more job losses
  • Unemployment rate drops to 9.7% despite more job losses
more

Eyes on Trade

  • Exciteable Young Men
  • Exciteable Young Men
more

Econbrowser

  • Letting the EGTRRA and JGTRRA Provisions Expire
  • Reactions to last week's economic data
more

TradeReform.org

  • CO-Gov: Dem leading
  • CO-03: Salazar not a sure bet
more

EconomPic

  • The Death of the Workforce
  • Market Recap (2/08/10)
more

Economist's View

  • "Fine Print, Deceptive Pricing, and Buried Tricks"
  • "The Inexact Science of Economics"
more

Economy in Crisis

  • Why Layoffs are Not Beneficial to Companies
  • A Growing Concern
more

The Big Picture

  • 5 Most Expensive Pieces of Art
  • Food Stamps – The Great Recession’s Soup Lines
more

Credit Slips

  • Bankruptcies Maintain Similar Month-to-Month Rate in January
  • Monetary Policy and the Housing Bubble
more

Manufacture This

  • The Early Shift
  • The Future of Manufacturing…Part Five
more

Alan Tonelson

  • More on Obama's Export Delusions
  • Domestic Manufacturers Urge Obama to Back Up Tougher China Talk With Immediate Currency-Manipulation Bill Push
more

black swan

Beat The Press

  • Jingoism and the Budget Deficit: Using Any Tactic to Advance the Budget Cutting Agenda
  • Social Security Benefits Will Be Paid, It is the Law
more

Nouriel Roubini's Global EconoMonitor

  • Roubini Bloomberg Interview on Sovereign Debt and U.S. Outlook
  • RGE's Weekly Roundup
more

Zero Hedge

  • S&P Revises Outlooks on Citigroup, Bank Of America To Negative From Stable
  • First Greece, Now Spain: Moore Capital, Brevan Howard, Paulson As Well As JPM And Goldman Implicated In Spanish CDS Rout
more

The Mess That Greenspan Made

  • On the Fed's exit strategy
  • Tuesday morning links
more

Tax Justice Network

  • OECD: involve civil society and developing countries in peer review process
  • Football premier league seeks elite opt-out
more

Brad Delong

  • links for 2010-02-09
  • Pretending that Nothing Is Wrong When Your Hair on Fire Does Not Send a Good Signal...
more

Steve Keen's Debtwatch

  • Interview on Switzer TV
  • Vote for Ignoble/Dynamite Economics Prize
more

New Deal 2.0

  • Bill Black to BofA Chairman: Racist bank adviser in Germany must go
  • Straws in the Wind: The 5 Supremes
more

Pension Pulse

  • Greece Implements Pension Reforms
  • Drop in Dividends Leaves Pensions Exposed?
more

Angry Bear

  • Limit Banks' Proprietary Trading? Links Worth Noting on Possible Reprise of Glass Steagall Maybe
  • AN IMMODEST PROPOSAL
more

Robert Reich

  • Obomanomics One Year Out
  • 2010 Rancho Mirage Speakers Series
more

Noslaves.com

  • Economy in Crisis Calls Out Bill Gates and Lobbyist H-1B Propaganda
  • Jobs Bill
more

Financial Armageddon

  • The Next Phase of My Evaluation
  • The Next Phase of My Evaluation
more

Stock overvalued at levels never before seen

Submitted by midtowng on Mon, 10/19/2009 - 21:44.
  • stock price
  • Wall Street

The stock market rally coming off March lows has now surpassed 60%, a rally of strength rarely seen before. But it has been seen before, so let's put it into perspective.

* Year over Year Retail Sales: 9.3% average in prior 60% rallies versus -5.3% in the current one
* Consumer Confidence: 95.5 average; 53.1 now
* Capacity Utilization: 79.9% average; 66.6% now
* Year over Year Industrial Production: 4.1% avereage; -10.7% now
* ISM: 53.9 average; 52.6 now
* Payroll employment gains over period: 2.2% average; -2.0% now
* Decline in continued unemployment claims from cycle peak: -26.3 average; -11.6% now
* Year over Year growth in total credit market debt: 9.3% average; 3.0% now
* Year over Year growth in household debt: 8.8% average; -0.1% now
* P/E Multiple: 16.8x average; 20.0x now

In other words, the fundamentals cannot justify this rally.
But these aren't the only ways that you can measure this rally. Another way to do it is on a relative basis based on its recent performance.

On the valuation front, stocks are presently overvalued, but to levels that we've observed at least several times in history. The anomaly relates to market action, where we can no longer find a single historical instance where stocks were more overbought on the combination of short- and intermediate-term measures we respond to most strongly. Indeed, only one instance comes close, which is November 28, 1980.

That date is not very well known, mostly because it was so short-lived. The rally was coming off the 1980 recession and was based on "less bad" news, much like today's. That rally quickly died as the country headed into the 1982 double-dip recession.

As for the present, we have rarely seen 90% of stocks suspended above their 50- and 200-day moving averages for as sustained a period as we have now observed.

‹ Bloomberg Story on Goldman Sachs Swap Fees for Bonds which don't exist Tonight on PBS' FRONTLINE: The Warnings ›
  • addthis
  • Email this Instapopulist Forum topic
  • 2 points

Asset price bubbles.

Submitted by RebelCapitalist on Tue, 10/20/2009 - 06:39.

It's illusory. Make it feel like things are going well by providing trillions in liquidity and this time the place for all that cheap money is the stock market. But hey, LEI will show an increase because of the stock market and everything will seem OK.

The stock market is reflexive - there is a built-in feedback mechanism where perceptions and information is reflected back into itself often times ignoring reality.

RebelCapitalist.com - Financial Information for the Rest of Us.

Not yet rated.
  • reply

I guess I am old fashion

Submitted by RebelCapitalist on Tue, 10/20/2009 - 06:46.

but the other thing is the quality of earnings. Many of these profits are based on cost cutting. Look at Catepillar it made its profits based on inventory and capacity cuts. Now, they say that things have bottomed out - we will see. Certainly, a lower dollar will help them overseas but they have probably cut to the bone.

RebelCapitalist.com - Financial Information for the Rest of Us.

Not yet rated.
  • reply

That's not quite so clear

Submitted by Seed on Tue, 10/20/2009 - 20:01.

The issue may be more one of quality as Rebel Capitalist says, rather than absolute value. Hussman's evaluation is far more sophisticated than anything I can do, but based on the actual numbers it would seem no so severe. Annualized "operating earnings" at the end of q2 were $55.24 for a 20x multiple based on current pricing and using the projected numbers for q3, the annualized multiple is 18x. Not hugely overinflated by market standards. But the quality of those earnings is key. Corporations got there by slashing staff, closing plants and outsourcing jobs. In other words, just generally decimating the labor force. So revenue growth will come from where? PCE was up in the third quarter and credit was down. That creates an enormous squeeze on what's left of savings (which were way down in August) and is followed by epic fail in the economy. People need jobs in order for the economy to grow and corporations to earn profits, unless most of those earnings come from overseas sales and currency gains.

And then there is the issue of writedowns. Operating earnings are bogus for a lot of reasons, and reported earnings (which include writedowns) are more reflective of a company's health. But therein lies an interesting story.

Writedowns in the first quarter, with the economy contracting at a 6% rate, were $2.60 a share, or roughly equivalent to the writedowns taken in the fourth quarter of 2005, when the economy was running "full blast". Nothing wrong there!!!

When the results from the second quarter were initially aggregated by the S&P, with the economy contracting at close to 1%, writedowns were $.02/share. You need to go a long way back in the historical record to find that kind of a trivial difference.

Somebody must have let the CEOs know that they were all swimming with their shorts down. Since then the difference has ballooned up to $.30/share due to "adjustments". Between you and me a $.28/share adjustment to the aggregated S&P500 earnings is not a trivial change. It would seem that the Federal Government is not the only organization that adjusts its numbers for initial reporting purposes.

The real question is how long the pretense can be maintained or, as a corollary, how long is the collective memory of the Big 4 accounting firms? (anyone remember Arthur Anderson?) [FYI, Writedowns in the fourth quarter of 2002, a full year after the end of the 2001 recession, but just 6 months after AA went down in flames were much, much larger than in 2001.] The shysters can keep this going for a long time if their accountants have short memories. I suspect there will be some reckoning in the fourth quarter, but nowhere near as much as it should be. That will push "as reported" P/E into the upper 20s; definitely bubble territory, but nowhere near the upper 40s seen at the height of the tech bubble. But given that the consumer is gone and jobs are gone, the whole thing could unravel in 2010.

Sorry for the long comment.

Rated 5 by one user. see individual ratings
  • reply

Excellent points

Submitted by midtowng on Thu, 10/22/2009 - 10:13.

I'd like to add to them.
#1) Domestic equity mutual fund outflows reached $25 Billion in August. This makes no sense when you consider the major market moved 7% higher that month. In fact, every week of September and so far in October has seen steadily increasing outflows, with the week of October 14 hitting a high of $5.3 Billion.

#2) On valuations:

The S&P 500 Index is now selling at 26 times operating earnings. That's more expensive than the bull market top in 2007.

Not yet rated.
  • reply

Post new comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
Input format
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Allowed HTML tags: <a> <b> <address> <blockquote> <br> <caption> <center> <code> <dd> <del> <div> <dl> <dt> <em> <font> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <hr> <i> <img> <li> <ol> <p> <pre> <span> <strong> <sub> <sup> <table> <tbody> <td> <tfoot> <th> <thead> <tr> <u> <ul> <tr>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Image links with 'rel="lightbox"' in the <a> tag will appear in a Lightbox when clicked on.
CAPTCHA
This question is for testing whether you are a human visitor and to prevent automated spam submissions.
Image CAPTCHA
Copy the characters (respecting upper/lower case) from the image.

Syndicate

Syndicate content

Add to Technorati Favorites

Privacy Policy

Google Delicious Yahoo! Bloglines Newsgator MSN AOL Rojo Newsburst RSSFwd
© Economic Populist 2008-2009