Home

The Economic Populist

Speak Your Mind 2 Cents at a Time

Discussion

  • Forums
    • Labor Economics
      • Labor
      • Outsourcing/Insourcing
        • Immigration
        • Professional Labor Issues
    • Macro Economics
      • Fiscal, Monetary Policy
      • Global
      • Tax Policy
      • Trade Policy
      • Wall Street
    • Politics
      • Congress
      • Executive Branch
    • Admin
  • Home
  • Reads
  • Discuss
  • RSS Feed
  • Twitter
  • About
  • Contact
Home Discuss Congress

New blog posts

  • Must Read Posts for March 13, 2010
  • Friday Movie Night - China Currency Manipulation & Make Markets Be Markets
  • Lehman Brothers - If you are experiencing Déjà vu, that's because it is GroundHog Day!
  • U.S. Manufacturing Technology Consumption Bounces 26% Off Bottom
  • Economic Warfare? Europe versus Wall Street
  • Let's Chat Labor Productivity
  • Why we are headed into Depression
  • First Iceland, then the World
  • Creating State Level Jobs Programs: A Jobs Insurance Supplement
  • Sunday Morning Comics - Goldman Sucks Edition
more

User login

  • Create new account
  • Request new password

Navigation

  • User Guide
  • News aggregator

Recent Comments

  • Calling all rebels.
    5 hours 40 min ago
  • Participate? Oy!
    6 hours 42 min ago
  • I think there is a huge cultural problem
    1 day 2 hours ago
  • Interesting tidbit of info about Wellpoint (Anthem BC)
    1 day 6 hours ago
  • understand, the never ending "percent change" tunnel vision
    1 day 7 hours ago
  • no surprise here
    1 day 8 hours ago
  • There's a better plan
    1 day 9 hours ago
  • 1zackly
    1 day 13 hours ago
  • there you go
    1 day 21 hours ago
  • The crimes against the people diet
    1 day 21 hours ago
  • the thing is
    2 days 17 min ago
  • Many pieces on the transaction tax
    2 days 7 hours ago
  • Unions Here Also Targeting Wall Street
    2 days 8 hours ago
  • That Would Be An Immediate Low Cost Stimulus
    2 days 16 hours ago
  • No more mortgage companies feel shame or remorse
    3 days 2 hours ago
  • I'm getting jealous
    3 days 4 hours ago
  • They did something??? Wow
    3 days 7 hours ago
  • Let's address the real issues
    3 days 8 hours ago
  • outsourcing
    3 days 9 hours ago
  • "pre-ordained cheap labor
    3 days 11 hours ago

Poll

Populist Du Jour

  • Why we are headed into Depression

Vox Populi

  • Holy Cow Batman! SIGTARP Barofsky says U.S. on the hook for $23.7 Trillion in bail out!
  • Subprime meltdown over; now comes the bad news
  • The Deflationary Recession of 2009?
  • The Panic of 2008: a turning point
  • Text of Bail Out Act Before Congress - TAKE ACTION NOW!
  • U3 and U6 Unemployment during the Great Depression
  • Scientist Who Laid Ground Work for Nobel Prize Drives a Bus, Can't get a Job

Active forum topics

  • Outrage Du Jour - California Anthem Blue Cross to raise health insurance rates 39%
  • Manufacturing & Trade Inventories & Sales for January 2010
more

Atlanta Fed's Macroblog

  • A look at the income-side estimates of growth
  • Consumer credit, credit availability and The Credit CARD Act
more

BEA

  • U.S. International Trade in Goods and Services, January 2010
more

iMFdirect

  • This Time It’s Different
  • Something New Out of Africa: A Global Player
more

CBO

  • Estimate of the Budgetary Effects of the Senate-Passed Health Bill
  • Presentation on “Fiscal Policy Choices” to the National Association for Business Economics
more

powells

GAO

  • GAO-10-365, Electronic Government: Implementation of the Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act of 2006, March 12, 2010
  • GAO-10-464R, Revitalization Programs: Empowerment Zones, Enterprise Communities, and Renewal Communities, March 12, 2010
more

Instapopulist

  • Manufacturing & Trade Inventories & Sales for January 2010
  • EU to bail out Greece
  • Retail Sales - February 2010
  • A Letter Worth Reading from Senators Bernie Sanders & Jim Webb
  • Goldman Sachs Made $55.7 million on Build America Bond Fees
  • Trade Deficit decreases $2.6 billion from last month - Trade January 2010
  • State Unemployment Maps for January 2010 - Unemployment increases in 30 States
more

Calculated Risk

  • Unofficial Problem Bank List at 640
  • Nearing Retirement and Unemployed or Underemployed
more

Naked Capitalism

  • Links 3/13/10
  • Indefensible Men
more

Paul Krugman

  • Beck in the U.S.A.
  • Debt And Transfiguration
more

dorgan

The Baseline Scenario

  • What’s Wrong with the Financial System in Eight Minutes
  • Get Rid of Selection Sunday
more

Eyes on Trade

  • GTW Director Lori Wallach Appears on Bloomberg TV
  • Watch Lori Wallach LIVE on Bloomberg TV at 2pm
more

Econbrowser

  • Whither the Yuan?
  • Update: the 2010-19 Impact of PPACA on Budget Balance
more

TradeReform.org

  • Ag Trade Adjustment Program Launched
  • Stupak urges Congress to repeal NAFTA
more

EconomPic

  • Consumer = Unhappy, but Spending
  • The Changing Face of American Debt
more

Economist's View

  • "Managed Care: Get Used to It"
  • What's the Optimal Level of Unemployment Benefits?
more

Economy in Crisis

  • The Dow and the Down and Out
  • GM Dealers in Limbo
more

The Big Picture

  • The Forthcoming Financial Reform
  • Saturday Reads
more

Credit Slips

  • De-Detour: CDS Nudity on the Exotic Fringe
  • Debt and the People, Part I: The Cold
more

Manufacture This

  • Tight times for mill workers in Maine, Part 5
  • Recovery emerging from U.S. factories
more

Alan Tonelson

  • Trade deficit dips; exports, imports fall
  • Obama Launches New Exports Push as Trade Deficit Narrows -- but Hard Road Ahead
more

black swan

Beat The Press

  • Wrong Surprise on Retail Sales
  • The Dollar, the Deficit, and Accounting Identities
more

Nouriel Roubini's Global EconoMonitor

  • The Rise of Sovereign Risk in Advanced Economies
  • RGE's Weekly Roundup
more

Zero Hedge

  • Guest Post: The Big Dead-Cat Bounce
  • We Demand The Fed Be The Financial Uber-Regulator... The Australia Fed That Is
more

The Mess That Greenspan Made

  • CityCenter contractor to file $492 million suit
  • Your path to homeownership
more

Styles Checks-125 x 125- Animiated Marvel Banner

Tax Justice Network

  • Evening Standard: How the tide turned against tax avoiders
  • Slim (non-) taxes in Mexico contribute to disaster
more

Brad Delong

  • Talking About the Outlook
  • On the Filibuster
more

New Deal 2.0

  • Remake/Remodel
  • March 12
more

Steve Keen's Debtwatch

  • Everyone’s a critic…
  • T-Shirts for Kosciousko
more

Pension Pulse

  • Will the Real Debt Crisis Please Stand Up?
  • Return of the Pension Fund Fudge?
more

Angry Bear

  • O.K., let's just think about this budget thing for a while, Part I
  • Another link:
more

Robert Reich

  • The Sham Recovery
  • Bail Out Our Schools
more

Noslaves.com

  • Finally, a State saves money by hiring Americans and getting rid of H-1Bs
more

Financial Armageddon

  • Where the Hiring Is
  • The Upsides and Downsides of the Great Recession
more

Taunter shreds health insurers' claims that recission is rare

Submitted by Tony Wikrent on Tue, 08/04/2009 - 06:35.
  • Congress
  • health care reform
  • Health insurance
  • mathematics

A big tip'o the hat to okanogen at CorrenteWire for picking up this one:

Death by Math (that should get Oaks' attention!). Taunter analyzes the statement by Assurant CEO Don Hamm’s that "Rescission is rare." Rescission is when a health insurer cancels a policy, usually because the insured "lied" on the original application, usually by failing to disclose a previous condition. If you haven't heard the horror stories of people who required costly medical care only to be dropped by their health insurer, you haven't been paying attention to the world around you. Here is what Hamm told Congress in his prepared remarks:

 

Rescission is rare. It affects less than one-half of one percent of people we cover. Yet, it is one of many protections supporting the affordability and viability of individual health insurance in the United States under our current system.

Late last week, James Kwak of Baseline Scenario suggested that the numbers put forward by Hamm were misleading because rescissions are targeted only at those who fall ill. [NOTE - this corrects my previous, erroneous statement that Kwak had accepted Hamm's argument; I apologize for that major error.] Taunter, who has a mathematics background, came up with the hard numbers:

To understand why 0.5% of the people Assurant covers is a lot of people – a jarring, terrifying, probably criminal lot – you need to understand a little bit of math.  You need to understand just enough math to understand what Don and his legal team are not telling you.  You need to understand conditional probability.  And the folks at Assurant are counting on the fact that you don’t. . . .

Half of the insured population uses virtually no health care at all.  The 80th percentile uses only $3,000 (2002 dollars, adjust a bit up for today). You have to hit the 95th percentile to get anywhere interesting, and even there you have only $11,487 in costs.  It’s the 99th percentile, the people with over $35,000 of medical costs, who represent fully 22% of the entire nation’s medical costs.  These people have chronic, expensive conditions.  They are, to use a technical term, sick.

An individual adult insurance plan is roughly $7,000 (varies dramatically by age and somewhat by sex and location).

It should be fairly clear that the people who do not file insurance claims do not face rescission.  The insurance companies will happily deposit their checks.  Indeed, even for someone in the 95th percentile, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for the insurance company to take the nuclear option of blowing up the policy.  $11,487 in claims is less than two years’ premium; less than one if the individual has family coverage in the $12,000 price range.  But that top one percent, the folks responsible for more than $35,000 of costs – sometimes far, far more – well there, ladies and gentlemen, is where the money comes in.  Once an insurance company knows that Sally has breast cancer, it has already seen the goat; it knows it wants nothing to do with Sally.

If the top 5% is the absolute largest population for whom rescission would make sense, the probability of having your policy cancelled given that you have filed a claim is fully 10% (0.5% rescission/5.0% of the population).  If you take the LA Times estimate that $300mm was saved by abrogating 20,000 policies in California ($15,000/policy), you are somewhere in the 15% zone, depending on the convexity of the top section of population.  If, as I suspect, rescission is targeted toward the truly bankrupting cases – the top 1%, the folks with over $35,000 of annual claims who could never be profitable for the carrier – then the probability of having your policy torn up given a massively expensive condition is pushing 50%. One in two.  You have three times better odds playing Russian Roulette.

And that's just the beginning of Taunter's article. There are some other great zingers in the rest, such as this:

It is in the health insurer’s interest to have application fraud, not only because it saves time and expense on the front end, but also because it lets them get out of any policy that isn’t going well for them. If the health insurer had to verify the information – if, in essence the insurance company had to behave as an accredited investor with adequate expertise to make a decision without reliance – it wouldn’t have the opportunity to bail out.  It would catch more genuine liars, but many of these liars would have turned out to be healthy, profitable customers, and what the carrier really wants is a population devoid of expensive claims, not devoid of liars.

Just go read it: Unconscionable Math. And get it someone in your Congresscritter's office to read it.

 

‹ We're Gonna Audit the Fed - House Finance Committee Chair Barney Frank No Political Party Had Clean Hands in Washington D.C. ›
  • addthis
  • Email this Instapopulist Forum topic
  • 1 point

nothing lies better

Submitted by Robert Oak on Tue, 08/04/2009 - 08:36.

than conditional probability. I saw this and it's a great post, trying to expose one of the common areas of confusion, conditional probability which is used to lie with statistics.

Not yet rated.
  • reply

Actually ...

Submitted by James Kwak (not verified) on Tue, 08/04/2009 - 12:14.

This is what I said: "And remember, insurers only try to rescind policies if you turn out to need them; so the percentage of people who lose their policies when they need them is even higher. (The denominator should exclude all those people who never need expensive medical care, at least not before 65 when they go onto the single-payer system.)"

I'm generally not this sensitive, but I am proud of my statistical chops, so I don't want people to think I missed this one.

That said, Taunter dealt with the issue in much more depth and much more clearly than I did, and I'm glad that everyone is picking up his post.

Rated 5 by one user. see individual ratings
  • reply

Welcome to EP Sir Kwak

Submitted by Robert Oak on Tue, 08/04/2009 - 12:47.

I didn't catch this, Tony, he did catch it.

The original post from Baseline Scenario, Health Insurance "Innovation".

The issue is conditional probability is very difficult to comprehend. People see "0.5%" and can't track where the rest of the numbers are coming from and Kwak didn't spell out the procedure on how he got the ballooning rescission numbers. Probably (pun intended) because most people, including a lot of PhDs, do not have graduate probability/statistics course work or a lot of experience with conditional probability, Bayes' Thm. and Actuarial Science.

The insurers claim that rescission is very rare; at the Congressional hearing, two of three industry representatives said it happens to less than 0.5% of policies per year. But that is a deeply misleading number. That means that if you are in the individual market for twenty years, you have a 10% chance of your policy being rescinded; 30 years, and it goes up to 14%.

Even myself, despite passing the "quiz", walked into Las Vegas and simply "forgot" the concept of independent events, much to the consternation of my bank account. (went the opposite way, maybe blowing on the dice will help!)

Not yet rated.
  • reply

Tony

Submitted by Robert Oak on Tue, 08/04/2009 - 13:58.

I saw your corrected the miscategorization of Kwak over on that evil orange satan (:)), might correct it on the original for while we don't get the participation/comments on EP, we often beat the actual number of reads per post than DK....

Also, in your title, should be rescission.

Folks, I've done this myself, spell checker doesn't work in the titles and those damn programs...

often they just don't like them big fancy words and will get you to put in recession as an example. (I just did it, easy to do!).

but another big favor, regulars on EP, add EP to your DK blogroll.

Not yet rated.
  • reply

Maybe someone should do an intro

Submitted by davet on Tue, 08/04/2009 - 18:50.

to conditional probability. Go beyond Markovian and talk about non-Markovian dynamics. Which would be a good lead in to a genus of Very Dark Grey Swans.

Rated 5 by one user. see individual ratings
  • reply

stochastic out!

Submitted by Robert Oak on Tue, 08/04/2009 - 22:44.

I just added some LaTeX and graphing tools, which are straight out of Academia style to write complex mathematical formulas.

Frankly, while I think one can get away with writing up a few formulas and even venture into Calculus.....

This should give capabilities like econbrowser and Krugman have on their blogs (I believe they are using something similar).

but I think if you're going into Markov models you'll have an audience of 0.5.

Not yet rated.
  • reply

Post new comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
Input format
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Allowed HTML tags: <a> <b> <address> <blockquote> <br> <caption> <center> <code> <dd> <del> <div> <dl> <dt> <em> <font> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <hr> <i> <img> <li> <ol> <p> <pre> <span> <strong> <sub> <sup> <table> <tbody> <td> <tfoot> <th> <thead> <tr> <u> <ul> <tr>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Image links with 'rel="lightbox"' in the <a> tag will appear in a Lightbox when clicked on.
CAPTCHA
This question is for testing whether you are a human visitor and to prevent automated spam submissions.
Image CAPTCHA
Copy the characters (respecting upper/lower case) from the image.

Syndicate

Syndicate content

Add to Technorati Favorites

Privacy Policy

Google Delicious Yahoo! Bloglines Newsgator MSN AOL Rojo Newsburst RSSFwd
© Economic Populist 2008-2009